Welcome to Snyderverse Analysis, a blog designed for the express purpose of analysing every facet of Zack Snyder's DC film series. My ultimate goal is to create a comprehensive, definitive resource on these films and the culture around them. What I have written so far already constitutes more than any other analysis of these movies, easily constituting a book's worth of content. If you like this breakdown and find value in film analysis, or if you are just curious how I might respond to criticisms, I encourage you to stick around for the main publishing later this year (hopefully).
If all goes well, by 28 June 2021, the fifth anniversary of the release of the Ultimate Edition of Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice, I will have finished my lengthy analysis for that film and finally publish it. It will be divided into four posts: three for a scene-by-scene analysis and one for an overview of the movie's story, themes, characters, music, production design, etc. On that day or shortly thereafter, I will publish the other six companion posts: three addressing the several hundred criticisms of the movie, one analysing the mindset and toxicity of the Snyderverse's hatedom, one addressing the many criticisms directed towards Zack Snyder, one breaking down the religious logic of the supposed "true Superman" used to criticise these films.
This is one such companion post. With Zack Snyder's Justice League coming out within three months, I recently focused on finishing this small post in time for the New Year. I wrote this list of responses to the various criticisms of the Snyder Cut movement as a more effective alternative to arguing on some forum, and to set the record straight by correcting the widespread misinformation around this film with an easy resource. As such, this post is mostly addressed to critics of this movement. In some areas, it also serves a simple educational purpose by explaining what the Snyder Cut movement is and why we pushed for it.
I have addressed here every criticism I have heard. If you take issue with the Snyder Cut movement but your issues have not been mentioned here, then I have simply not seen them yet. Many of the criticisms here were only made prior to the announcement of the film, but I am addressing them regardless to demonstrate how criticism of this movement was never valid. If you are looking for my response to a specific criticism, feel free to scroll through the criticisms highlighted in bold. Also, feel free to take screenshots of this post for convenience if you want to quickly address ignorance or misinformation elsewhere.
You want a studio to remake a movie for you! You're entitled!
Zack Snyder's Justice League is not a remake of another film. Snyder was the original director for Justice League, and after a family tragedy, was forced to step away from production long after principal photography had been concluded and deep into post-production. Joss Whedon was brought in to recut the film with lazy reshoots adding additional humour, simplifying the plot, and featuring Henry Cavill's uncanny CGI mouth before shrinking the film down to nearly half its intended length. We spent three years campaigning for the completion of the film that Snyder began and the restoration of his vision for this movie. We are not asking for a remake like some do with Star Wars: The Last Jedi, or the nearly two million Game of Thrones fans who signed a petition to remake season 8.
The Snyder Cut doesn't exist!
In short, we knew for a fact thanks to behind-the-scenes footage, deleted scenes, unseen screenshots, Vero teases, plot details, physical proof, and a trailer that there was a radically different movie shot by Zack Snyder that he edited into a non-assembly cut weighing in at 214 minutes by the time he left the project in May 2017. That was the Snyder Cut. Below is a detailed and clear description of exactly what the Snyder Cut is plus absolute, objective proof of its existence.
After the release of Batman v Superman, the studio demanded rewrites to the original script for Justice League to deviate from elements that were commonly criticised in BvS, which included the removal of elements like the black suit, a Martian Manhunter cameo, and Zack Snyder's "scary idea", plus mandating the inclusion of more comedic dialogue. Like with David Ayer's Suicide Squad, many of these script changes were personally made by Geoff Johns, as indicated by Vulture and Ray Fisher. Former senior editor of Vulture, Kyle Buchanan, claimed in a now-deleted Tweet on 11 June 2018 that Chris Terrio would complain to Geoff Johns, "Maybe try using some of my pages?" Snyder later referred to this as the "all compromise" version.
"Understand that Chris Terrio and I had finished the script for Justice League before [BvS] came out, so that script is done. [BvS] came out and some people didn't like the movie, a vocal minority, [laughs] and so I was asked by the studio like, 'Hey, you can't do a lot of stuff we don't want you to do from that script.' So we did a rewrite of the script. So, the original Justice League that Chris and I wrote, we didn't even shoot. I mean, there's a lot of it that we shot, but the actual idea, the hard idea, the scary idea, we never filmed because the studio was like, 'That's crazy.' And we were so insecure at the time after [BvS] came out, we were like, 'I guess it is crazy! We're nuts! There's going to be mass hysteria in the streets if we film this!'" (Zack Snyder, ArtCentre College, 24 March 2019)
Snyder began principal photography on 11 April 2016 and officially finished in early October that year (though Jay Oliva says it was December), resulting in a nearly five-hour assembly cut. Four months of post-production later, on 17 February 2017, Snyder revealed on Vero he was working with senior colourist Stefan Sonnenfeld at Company 3 (of which Sonnenfeld is a co-founder) on colour grading, meaning the digital intermediate phase was underway, at which point the assembly footage was cut down to a watchable edit known as "picture lock", clocking in at 214 minutes (3.5 hours), a number which became a rallying cry for the Snyder Cut movement. At this point, the studio had mandated that the movie be cut down to two hours, though this goal was ultimately never achieved under Snyder's supervision, only reaching 140 minutes. This might have led to Joss Whedon being brought on to head additional changes and planned reshoots prior to May 22.
"I have famously advertised the runtime at 214 minutes." (Zack Snyder, Beyond The Trailer, 20 July 2020)
"Also, the cut I'm working on was finished in February of 2017. The cut was finished. That's the giant, super long version of the movie; my kind of ultimate penultimate version, and then the work we did in the subsequent months was to shorten the movie to the studio mandate that we never really got to." (Zack Snyder, Justice Con, 25 July 2020)
On 12 March 2017, tragedy struck the director's family when his daughter, Autumn Snyder, took her life. Later on 25 March, the studio released a second trailer full of VFX shots. Two months and ten days after the tragedy, on 22 May, it was announced that Snyder was leaving the project to be with his family. He took with him a flash drive containing an edited cut of the movie with a completed score by composer Tom Holkenborg (Junkie XL). This was the "compromised cut" or "214 cut", but was otherwise known simply as the "Snyder Cut". Mark Hughes, a Forbes journalist and sceptic-turned-believer, said this cut was "near-finished" in terms of VFX and the like, and later reiterated that it was "more than 90+% complete." That was the film we originally campaigned for.
After leaving the project, Snyder was replaced as director by Joss Whedon, who rewrote as much as eighty pages of script and undertook significant reshoots. Contrary to the official statement, Snyder did not choose Whedon to replace him. At some point since, Snyder made his cut black and white before screening it to Jason Momoa, and then again on 6 February 2020 to "a select group of executives from Warner Bros, HBO Max, and DC," successfully convincing them to turn the unfinished cut into a larger film more in line with his vision, including removing elements added by Johns and company. After the 911 days (2.5 years) since the release of Joss Whedon's Justice League, Snyder officially announced on 20 May 2020 that Zack Snyder's Justice League was happening.
The Snyder Cut doesn't exist! It was never finished!
This is and always has been an argument of semantics. The only question that matters has always been whether enough progress was made on the film for the studio to be willing to spend money on its completion. As history has proven, the answer was a very strong affirmative. The hashtag was coined by @MovieBuff100 on 21 November 2017, and it has stuck ever since. The core goal of the movement was to convince Warner Bros to deliver the film they promised, and the hashtag has always served that purpose.
This is and always has been an argument of semantics. The only question that matters has always been whether enough progress was made on the film for the studio to be willing to spend money on its completion. As history has proven, the answer was a very strong affirmative. The hashtag was coined by @MovieBuff100 on 21 November 2017, and it has stuck ever since. The core goal of the movement was to convince Warner Bros to deliver the film they promised, and the hashtag has always served that purpose.
Later this year, many unfinished movies will "release". This criticism is like saying that, because the cut of James Gunn's unfinished The Suicide Squad is complete, it still does not exist. It is such a pointless thing to say, which is why we made fun of that logic in these comments. Simply because a movie is unfinished does not mean it "does not exist". If the only thing left to do was add the ending credits, would the film still not exist? Zack Snyder evidently agrees that the Cut does not need to be finished to exist. Those were his terms, so those were the terms of the movement...
"That being said, I've spoken now to enough people at various levels in that production. There is a Snyder cut. For sure. That's not a mythical beast. It exists. Now, it's not a finished movie by any stretch of the imagination." (Kevin Smith, CinemaBlend, 2019)
"I mean, all I'll tell you is that... for sure there's a cut. It's done. I have a cut. I have a bunch of 'em. So it's not like... It's just up to them." (Zack Snyder, ArtCentre College, 24 March 2019)
"I can't give an exact answer to that because I don't know, but it exists, it's ready, aside from a few CG tweaks. But I don't own it. Legally, I cannot release it. I'm hoping it won't be long." (Zack Snyder, ArtCentre College, 24 March 2019)
"Is it real? Does it exist? Of course it does." (Zack Snyder, Vero, 4 December 2019)
"When we left the movie, I just took the drive of the cut on it. I honestly never thought it would be anything." (Zack Snyder, The Hollywood Reporter, 20 May 2020)
"To be honest, the reason why it's called the 'Snyder Cut' is that there was a Snyder Cut. I knew quite a long time ago that this was in the works and that it existed." (Tom Holkenborg (Junkie XL), Forbes, 16 September 2020)
"In 2019 Zack invited me to his screening room to see his cut of Justice League. It was in black and white and it did exist. It was over 3 hours long, full of previsualization and work in progress effects along with finished visual effects. At times Zack had to clarify what I was looking at. Yet the story kept my attention the entire time." (Tamara Watts Kent, Instagram, 30 January 2021)
Principal photography was completed on the original "Snyder Cut". The film was put together into a watchable 214-minute cut in an editing suite, the score was complete, and VFX were at least mostly finished when Snyder took it with him on a thumb drive when he left the project back in 2017. That, by definition, is the Snyder Cut, a film that can reasonably be finished and necessarily exists. But the simple point is, Snyder shot a radically different film from the 2017 theatrical release. That is what we wanted. The refusal to define the Snyder Cut as anything but a finished film is little more than attempting to control the conversation. Sure, some had said the film is 100% complete, but even Zack Snyder has very much shown the 214-minute film was unfinished, and it was especially worth noting that he said the following on Vero, confirming that the film's level of completion would not matter...
"Film is not 100% finished. Still some stuff I want to do, as with every film I've made. Not sure what difference it makes as to the finished level of the film." (Zack Snyder, Vero, 24 December 2019)
While I know that Bob Greenblatt (Chairman of WarnerMedia, head of HBO Max) did say the Snyder Cut "does not exist" on the Recode Media podcast on 26 May 2020 (32:08), it should be noted that Greenblatt was led on by Peter Kafka to say the much larger film they are currently working on does not exist specifically to confuse that with the original Snyder Cut that was picture locked by the time Snyder left the project back in 2017, all for a juicy clickbait headline for validation.
The Snyder Cut doesn't exist! It's just an assembly cut!
Zack Snyder put down this stupid idea on Twitter when he simply responded to Scott Mendelson making unsubstantiated claims with, "The assembly cut was nearly 5 hours long," and his cut was only 3.5 hours. The Snyder Cut could not be in such an early phase because Jason Momoa said twice he had actually watched the movie, Dave Bautista (who worked with Snyder on Army of the Dead) implied he had seen it, stunt coordinator Eunice Huthart has spoken to people who saw it, and the movie was screened to AT&T / Warner executives on 6 February. That is pretty substantial evidence that the cut was far beyond an assembly cut.
The Snyder Cut doesn't exist! Warner Bros forced Snyder to change the script!
Only that last part is true. The problem is this does not mean the Snyder Cut never existed. The film was still filmed by Snyder and based on a script by him and Chris Terrio. So, even though there existed a three-and-a-half hour cut of a movie directed entirely by Zack Snyder, written heavily by Chris Terrio, scored entirely by Junkie XL, composed almost entirely of unseen footage... that is not the Snyder Cut? It is not 100% the film Snyder wanted to make, but it is still a Snyder film by definition, and the film he actively campaigned for, and it is vastly different from the 2017 abomination, and it still contains "a lot" of the original script, and script additions by Johns are being removed, and Snyder shot additional footage to bring the film closer to what he intended by at least adding back the Martian Manhunter cameo he story-boarded. If that is not the Snyder Cut, then Man of Steel and Batman v Superman are not Snyder films either.
"Understand that Chris Terrio and I had finished the script for Justice League before [BvS] came out, so that script is done. [BvS] came out and some people didn't like the movie, a vocal minority, [laughs] and so I was asked by the studio like, 'Hey, you can't do a lot of stuff we don't want you to do from that script.' So we did a rewrite of the script. So, the original Justice League that Chris and I wrote, we didn't even shoot. I mean, there's a lot of it that we shot, but the actual idea, the hard idea, the scary idea, we never filmed because the studio was like, 'That's crazy.' And we were so insecure at the time after [BvS] came out, we were like, 'I guess it is crazy! We're nuts! There's going to be mass hysteria in the streets if we film this!'" (Zack Snyder, ArtCentre College, 24 March 2019)
"We announced it and were sipping the champagne outside, I remember very clearly, but it was months. When they originally approached us, they were like, 'Yeah, but we have no money.' Zack's like, 'Well, my score's not done. The visual effects aren't done. It's a lot longer, so if this is less than two hours and my director's cut is a little over four hours, that's a lot of visual effects.' So we had to put together a whole presentation to pitch them. Zack and I come from advertising, so it was a little helpful to prepare some analytics of, like, 'Look at this fan engagement and what this means.' Because, originally, they were like, 'Just put it out there as the rough cut!' And we were like, 'No, no, no, no one's going to be happy about that! If we're going to do it, we really want to complete the vision.'" (Deborah Snyder, LightCast Podcast, 20 December 2020)
"First of all, let's just clarify there's two bits that I added. One bit that I had really hoped to shoot in post but never got the chance to, and then that scene with Jared. The rest of the four hours of the movie are really just what I shot [in 2016], because the truth is I was in a struggle with the studio and famously we had a lot of stuff we had to do and make it funny and all this stuff. In a slightly subversive way, I just kept doing my thing at the same time so that I would have what I believed would be closer to what I would want to do without any influence. And I always kind of shoot that way anyway. I always try and shoot what I think is right." (Zack Snyder, ComicBook Debate, 4 January 2021)
The Snyder Cut doesn't exist! The theatrical cut is the movie Snyder intended!
The only evidence used to support this claim comes from early press releases giving feigned assurances that Snyder's vision was being respected and that Joss Whedon's reshoots were already planned by Zack Snyder. Even though Joss Whedon is obviously not compatible with Snyder's style and his involvement was obviously to entice the MCU crowd, especially considering how many people were cheering (or gloating) when he replaced Snyder as the director.
Out of MoS, BvS, and JL, Justice League was the only film where Geoff Johns got full producer credit. He confirmed his role in the butchering of Justice League by firmly contradicting the official statement that Snyder's vision was being respected in a Vulture article discussing his goal of "lightening of the previously sludge-dark mood." David Ayer (director, Suicide Squad) confirmed that Johns was meddling in the creative process, Ray Fisher could relate, and Jay Oliva alluded to this. Former senior editor of Vulture, Kyle Buchanan, claimed in a now-deleted Tweet on 11 June 2018 that Chris Terrio would complain to Johns, "Maybe try using some of my pages?" One of Johns' additions are, "I hear you can talk to fish?" Steppenwolf's original design, seen in the Ultimate Edition of Batman v Superman, was clearly changed against Snyder's will for the 2017 film, considering its restoration in Zack Snyder's Justice League. He was also prohibited from putting Superman in the black suit, contrary to the official excuse. He even dubbed the 214 cut as the "all compromise" version of the film.
"There was this obsession with it just being funny or light or something, and for some reason, the perception of the black suit, everyone seemed like, 'Oh, that sounds like you're just trying to make the movie dark and scary and not hilarious!' And I said, 'Yeah, by the way, it's not hilarious.' Help me with that. It's gonna be hilarious when [Superman] wakes up from the dead. Once Doomsday pulls his spike out of his heart, that's when the laughs begin, I'm telling you!" (Zack Snyder, Justice Con, 25 July 2020)
Joss Whedon got writing credit for his work on the film. Per Writers Guild of America rules, this means his work needed to represent a contribution to the screenplay of over 33% or, if the film counts as an original screenplay, at least 50%. Nothing in the film has not gone untarnished by Whedon and studio influence. The CGI has been radically altered, such as turning the dark sky to red, or replacing Darkseid with Steppenwolf in the history lesson. The colour grading for literally every second of this movie was altered from Snyder's preferred colour palette. The film's original composer, Tom Holkenborg (Junkie XL), was removed from the project back in June 2017 and replaced with Danny Elfman, who remarked that "reboot" character theme songs were a "bulls--t idea" and "only for the ego of the director or the composer."
- Fabian Wagner said that he had "unfortunately" seen the theatrical film, joked he was crying the whole experience, and thought it was "really sad to see the film the way it turned out to be."
- Ciaran Hinds (Steppenwolf) claimed the 2017 film "wasn't the movie I worked so hard on. We hope the director's cut comes out because it was better than the movie in the theatres."
- Joe Morton (Silas Stone) confirmed, "There was [more we shot]. They completely changed the story."
- Connie Nielson (Hippolyta) remarked, "What was really sad was how much stuff we filmed that wasn't in the film... The intent was not the same during the editing as it was during shooting."
- Patty Jenkins said Justice League went against everything they had planned for these characters.
- Christopher Nolan and Deborah Snyder discouraged Zack from watching the film because, according to Deborah, "I knew it would break his heart."
- Chris Terrio was so appalled by the resulting film that he immediately phoned his lawyer and asked if his name could be removed from the movie, calling it "an act of vandalism."
If we do the math, the following estimates range Snyder's footage constituting anywhere between 102 and 12 minutes of the 2017 film...
- Producer Charles Roven claimed (while everyone was forced to promote the film) that 80-85% of "what was originally shot" was intact, meaning 102 minutes of the 120-minute runtime at best, but if he was being sly and referring to the nearly 5-hour assembly cut, then Whedon's 15% could constitute up to 45 minutes.
- New York Times claimed that Joss Whedon wrote 80 pages of script for the reshoots which, if the page-per-minute rule applies here, would equal 80 minutes (66%) of the film's runtime, leaving only 40 minutes of Snyder's film.
- Fabian Wagner, the film's original cinematographer, estimated during his Masterclass that only 10% of Snyder's footage made it to the theatrical cut: 30 minutes of the 5-hour assembly cut, 21.4 minutes of the 214 cut, or 12 minutes of the theatrical cut.
- Zack Snyder stated in the Hollywood Reporter press release for the Snyder Cut announcement, "You probably saw one-fourth of what I did." Meaning: 75 minutes of the assembly cut, 1 hour of his ideal 4 hours, or 53 minutes of the 214 cut.
- Ray Fisher stated we see "less than an hour, for sure," of Snyder's footage, agreed with Wagner's estimate, and claimed that almost all his original Cyborg footage was absent from the movie.
In July 2017, Snyder deleted promotional material for Justice League from his Twitter timeline, and he has thus far refused to watch the theatrical film under advisement. After seeing the garish advertising for the film, Snyder made the 214 Cut black and white to feel better. He has very strongly stated he would never use a single frame that he did not shoot himself, and expressed his hope to wipe the 2017 film from existence. His VFX producer on Zack Snyder's Justice League, Tamara Watts Kent, determined that his film contains roughly 86% of unseen VFX shots, while 100% of the 2,800 VFX shots are all different in some way from the theatrical film.
"[Showing Jason Momoa the Cut] was slightly different. I mean, again, that was at the time when I was, 'Ah, no one's ever going to see this, so you better check it out.' And, by the way, that version of the movie was in black and white. Because, when I had the movie, I had seen some advertising for Justice League, a billboard or something, and it made me turn the movie black and white, because I saw the way they coloured the movie. I had to make the movie black and white just to like... [Exhales and closes eyes] be okay." (Zack Snyder, Justice Con, 25 July 2020)
"No. There would be no chance on Earth that I would use a shot that was made after I left the movie. I would rather destroy the movie. I would set it on fire before I would use a single frame that I did not photograph. That is a f--king hard fact. I would literally blow that f--king thing up if I thought for a second... By the way, anything you see in this movie that reminds you of the other theatrical release -- which, again, famously, I have literally never seen -- would be because that was a thing I had done, and now was being borrowed for whatever the Frankenstein's monster that you guys saw in the theatre." (Zack Snyder, Justice Con, 25 July 2020)
"I understand and, of course, respect your feelings, and I just hope I can wipe that version out of existence with what you see in March." (Zack Snyder, Vero, December 2020)
"I think what we determined was that, Tamara [Watts Kent] said -- who's our visual effects producer -- that 86% are [VFX] shots that no one's ever seen in any way, and then 100% of the shots are different in format or whatever than was in the theatrical film." (Zack Snyder, TheFilmJunkee, 20 December 2020)
Despite the compromises he had made, Snyder was okay with the 214-minute cut, and yet his film was cut down to 120 minutes, his colours massively altered, his story drastically mutated, his visuals and villains changed or removed entirely, his characters turned into one-note and dull superhero caricatures, and a significant portion of his footage replaced with the factually inferior work of an overrated TV director with a polar opposite aesthetic (or lack thereof). All this against Snyder's will, subverted at every step of the way. How can you believe that this is anything resembling the movie he wanted? To call Justice League a "Zack Snyder movie" was a blatant lie and tossing him under the bus.
Zack Snyder's Justice League is the final proof that the 2017 film is absolutely, objectively not what Snyder and company had intended.
When we say the Snyder Cut doesn't exist, we just mean that it's not finished!
Whole articles were (and still are) written around the words, "The Snyder Cut doesn't exist!" They were never titled, "The Snyder Cut isn't finished!" What kind of person thinks "doesn't exist" is just shorthand for "isn't finished"? Why would you substitute specificity for something vague that takes no less effort to say? If the hashtag was "#FinishTheSnyderCut", would the movement's opponents have never said, "It doesn't exist"? If the answer is yes, then that phrase was never valid to begin with since the circumstances of the subject never actually changed. To finish the Snyder Cut still means that there is a Snyder Cut.
The goal with, "It doesn't exist," has always been to destroy any conversation around the Snyder Cut, portray it as a myth that could easily be dismissed and its proponents brushed off as conspiracy theorists, discourage us from asking for it, and bury it forever by misleading uninformed people with a dismissive, repetitive phrase and deceptive headline into assuming it was never even close to finished, was never filmed, or even that the 2017 film is Snyder's vision. It has always been an argument in bad faith. Critics would not care if the only thing the 214 cut needed to finish was the end credits -- they would still say this phrase. Since Zack Snyder's Justice League was announced, the shifted goalpost has been to acquire some small, insignificant victory over the Snyder Cut movement.
No one cares! "Dozens of us!" Vocal minority!
Yeah, sure. No one cares except the loud minority. That is why so many people showed up to the "Snyder Con" 2019 ArtCentre event. That is why Ben Affleck handily won IMDb's "Best Batman" poll against Christian Bale in August 2020. That is why Zack Snyder's spotlight stream for the fan-hosted Justice Con got more viewers than any of the online Comic Con streams of 2020. That is how we donated over $500,000 to the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention. That is why #ReleaseTheSnyderCut became a world trending topic on 17 November 2019, getting attention from major media outlets and becoming Warner Bros' most-tweeted film of all time before it was even announced. That is why tens of millions of dollars are going into Zack Snyder's Justice League. That is why, after the film came out, #RestoreTheSnyderverse became the largest trend for a movie hashtag of all time with over 1.4 million tweets. That is why the 4K Justice League trailer has the most comments of any video on the Warner Bros Entertainment YouTube channel, consisting almost entirely of tens of thousands of #RestoreTheSnyderverse comments. Because no one cares. Bravo.
"But it's just a hard thing to argue with... They would say things like, 'Well, it's just a vocal minority. It's just a small amount of people.' I'm like, 'Okay, fair enough. If that's what you want to say. But if that's true, and it's not that big of a deal, how come you guys, a giant media corporation, cannot generate the same number of social media impressions as this vocal, grassroots minority that aren't that big of a deal?" (Zack Snyder, Release the Snyder Cut, 1 March 2021)
The numbers are fake! Snyder fans just use bots to inflate the support!
Prove it, because we both know you only say this because you refuse to believe that so many people can enjoy the films you hate. It also begs the question, if this is so easy, then why does it not happen more often? Why are we magically the only loud minority capable of these kinds of numbers?
Until you can prove any mass bot use among Snyder fans, at least consider instead that there are more of us than you think. Also, here is a huge bot campaign we do know about that was orchestrated to generate negativity for BvS leading up to its release, and it was not the last time Disney's opponents were brigaded by bots, which Zack Snyder's friend and set photographer Clay Enos thought was very interesting. Make of that what you will.
Below is a list of the many differences we are currently aware of. Give them a read, but be advised that this list contains spoilers.
- Fabian Wagner, Ciaran Hinds, Joe Morton, Connie Nielson, and Ray Fisher have all said the 2017 film is not the movie they made.
- It has been estimated that we have seen anywhere between 53-75 minutes (Snyder), 40 minutes (New York Times), or 12-30 minutes (Wagner) of Snyder footage in the 2017 film.
- A completely different aspect ratio.
- The running time of the movie/series is at least four hours in total, twice as long as the 2017 film, and will include absolutely none of Joss Whedon's extensive reshoots.
- According to Snyder, at least 86% of VFX shots are completely unseen, and the remaining 14% are altered.
- Every second is directed and executed with the totally different tone, cinematography, style, lighting, and colour palette of Zack Snyder and Fabian Wagner.
- Snyder called it "an entirely new thing" and "a new experience." Head of HBO Max Bob Greenblatt (33:00) called it a "radical rethinking."
- Around five minutes of new footage shot in 2020.
- According to Snyder, there is no Russian family, no Legion of Doom setup, no "thirstiest young woman," no "I just push people and run away," and no brunch jokes. Along with less comedy in general.
- Countless new sequences (both action and otherwise), and including some whole new scenes.
- The method of Superman's revival in the Snyder Cut is "much much much more" than what we got in Whedon's film.
- Steppenwolf is decapitated by Wonder Woman.
- Jonathan Kent might make yet another appearance.
- Cyborg's father dies in an extensive scene with Steppenwolf in STAR Labs.
- Snyder dubbed Ray Fisher (Cyborg) "the heart of my movie," and the character has at least one flashback to a football game and car scene to flesh out his backstory.
- There is no CGI mouth on Henry Cavill because he only had the moustache for the reshoots, not Snyder's principal photography.
- As additionally confirmed in the trailer, Superman wears the black suit and Steppenwolf's design from Batman v Superman has been restored.
- Darkseid has a greater presence. He at least gets the focus of the history lesson scene, a brief vision of the future, and appearing on the other side of a Boom Tube with "the whole family" at the end.
- Appearances from Kiersey Clemon's Iris West, Ryan Zheng's Ryan Choi (The Atom), Willem Dafoe's Nuidis Vulko, Peter Guiness' Desaad, Harry Lennix's Martian Manhunter, and Jared Leto's Joker.
- There is a time travel plot point where Flash runs back in time to undo Steppenwolf's victory.
- There is a completely different soundtrack by Junkie XL.
- So much more.
Possible Contradiction: This contradicts the criticism that Zack Snyder's Justice League is being built from the ground up and never existed before. Which is it? Will the movie just be a longer version of the 2017 film or is it a complete remake?
But it's still going to be roughly the same story!
"Batman assembles the Justice League to fight Steppenwolf's invasion. Superman comes back to life and they save the world together." That is the "story" you are thinking of, but that is just the basic premise. With that, you can theoretically make either the worst movie of all time or the greatest art ever produced by the human race. When roughly three whole hours of Snyder's film had gone unseen, the actual plot was beyond us. We knew of a few plot points for certain, and we knew that each of those plot points would be executed completely differently from the theatrical film. We had no idea how they would connect and we were totally ignorant of other plot points that had gone unseen.
Why does anyone want this?! Don't you remember how bad BvS was?! The Snyder Cut wouldn't be better! It'll suck! You'll be disappointed!
That is not how this works. Most of us already disagree with you over the quality of BvS and Zack Snyder's directing, and we are likely to disagree with you over the quality of Zack Snyder's Justice League too. You need to learn that we expect this movie will at least be good for the same reason general audiences expect the next MCU film to be good: because we like the prior films. You do not need to agree that MoS and BvS are good, but our belief that they are is why we expect ZSJL to be every bit as amazing. As such, you are speaking entirely on behalf of yourself, so do not act like your contempt for Snyder is universal, much less your desire to punish him for making his films the way he wants. Your focus shows you only care about whether you will enjoy it, but your movie opinions are not gospel, and this film was not meant for you. No one has to agree with you. Get this through your head.
But it's still going to be roughly the same story!
"Batman assembles the Justice League to fight Steppenwolf's invasion. Superman comes back to life and they save the world together." That is the "story" you are thinking of, but that is just the basic premise. With that, you can theoretically make either the worst movie of all time or the greatest art ever produced by the human race. When roughly three whole hours of Snyder's film had gone unseen, the actual plot was beyond us. We knew of a few plot points for certain, and we knew that each of those plot points would be executed completely differently from the theatrical film. We had no idea how they would connect and we were totally ignorant of other plot points that had gone unseen.
Why does anyone want this?! Don't you remember how bad BvS was?! The Snyder Cut wouldn't be better! It'll suck! You'll be disappointed!
That is not how this works. Most of us already disagree with you over the quality of BvS and Zack Snyder's directing, and we are likely to disagree with you over the quality of Zack Snyder's Justice League too. You need to learn that we expect this movie will at least be good for the same reason general audiences expect the next MCU film to be good: because we like the prior films. You do not need to agree that MoS and BvS are good, but our belief that they are is why we expect ZSJL to be every bit as amazing. As such, you are speaking entirely on behalf of yourself, so do not act like your contempt for Snyder is universal, much less your desire to punish him for making his films the way he wants. Your focus shows you only care about whether you will enjoy it, but your movie opinions are not gospel, and this film was not meant for you. No one has to agree with you. Get this through your head.
Furthermore, this movement is not just about getting a good Justice League movie. Demanding the Snyder Cut was justified by the ten reasons below...
Depends on who you ask. I want ZSJL for all the reasons in the response above. I want the Snyder Cut because the movie we got was not the movie that Warner Bros advertised. We know, as indisputable fact, that the studio openly lied about the film, insisted that Snyder's vision was being preserved when it was not, and during the worst time in his life attached his name to a title that was predominantly directed by Joss Whedon. We wanted to see the completion and release of the film that Snyder shot.
When you see how bad the Snyder Cut is, you'll just pretend that there's some other "true" Snyder Cut and campaign for that!
Okay, genius, if you think that everyone universally shares your contempt for Snyder's films, then why do we not campaign for some other cut of Batman v Superman if that film is so bad? When we see the Snyder Cut, we will like/dislike the film and accept it, just as we did with the Ultimate Edition of BvS. People will form their opinions and move on, regardless of its quality. But we do not want the Snyder Cut simply because we want a better Justice League, but because there is a better Justice League, among innumerable other reasons, and now our efforts have guaranteed we will see it.
Zack Snyder was the original director of Justice League until he left six months into post-production due to a family tragedy. Joss Whedon came in to massively reshoot the film, resulting in a tiny minority of Snyder's film making it into the movie that was released in theatres. Zack Snyder's Justice League is not dredging up the stinking carcass of Whedon's film to build upon. It is the restoration and completion of the film Snyder was working on, only a fraction of which you have seen. It is not a "fix" or "recut" of Justice League because it is the restoration of a completely different, separate, whole other film that was locked away since 2017. Not a single shot from Whedon's reshoots will be in the final film. Virtually all of the issues in the theatrical film will not exist in Snyder's. Any flaws will instead be 100% on Snyder's filmmaking and Chris Terrio's writing.
All the bad stuff will still be in it because all the bad stuff was done by Zack Snyder!
How do you know? Have you determined exactly what parts are Whedon and what parts are Snyder? Have you determined the plot of Zack Snyder's Justice League to ascertain that major narrative issues are there too? Or determined that the character development is as thin in Snyder's film as Whedon's? Do you know if you have seen Snyder's pure, untarnished version of any sequences exactly as he intended them? No, you obviously have not.
You're deluded because you think it's going to be some amazing masterpiece!
Well, Snyder and Terrio made BvS as well, and that movie is a masterpiece, so it is not beyond the realm of possibility. Heaven forbid anyone love movies you hate.
But that is not the point. We do not want the Snyder Cut because we think it will be the best movie of all time. People like me expect it to be an excellent film, but the idea that we only want ZSJL because we assume it will be perfect and flawless is not something I have ever seen from any supporter. I have also never seen anyone say this film is going to be some ultimate pinnacle of cinematic achievement. I have seen people excited for it, stoked to watch it after years of campaigning and speculation.
The Snyder Cut is only one chapter of a larger series, so you will be left unsatisfied anyway because you won't be able to see the next films!
We are already unsatisfied. True, I may never see a proper conclusion to this five-film story even with the Snyder Cut, but at least this series will end with a satisfying film for someone as opposed to no one. The 2017 film came and went, and no one -- including the people who think it is better than Snyder's last title -- will cherish it like we cherish MoS or BvS. The latter is still my favourite film, and nothing can change that unless an even more personally appealing film comes along.
If you get the Snyder Cut, you'll just campaign for a sequel to Zack Snyder's Justice League!
Some of us, sure, but unless Zack Snyder believes and claims it is possible, we know that convincing the studio to fund a whole new film is a vastly less likely occurrence than getting the Snyder Cut. Due to the money going into ZSJL and the excessive teasing about future events, #RestoreTheSnyderVerse trended on 31 December 2020 to show that there is demand, but we are fully aware that Justice League Part 2 depends on how Zack Snyder's Justice League performs commercially. If the numbers are bad, then no amount of fan campaigning will convince the studio to make a whole film that cannot earn back its budget. All we can do is let our voices be heard.
If Warner Bros was going to release the Snyder Cut, they would have by now! So where is it?!
Imagine saying that a movement is pointless because the goal has not yet been achieved. The idea that a movement's chances of success depend on whether or not it has actually succeeded yet is literally some of the very dumbest logic I have ever heard. There should be an award for how unfathomably idiotic that is. This is like concluding you will starve to death because you are not currently in the kitchen. This criticism ignores that the whole point of the Snyder Cut movement was to convince Warner Bros to release the Snyder Cut. As you can see, our efforts succeeded.
This movement existed to convince Warner Bros to release Zack Snyder's film. Superman II: The Richard Donner Cut took nearly 26 years to be released with much less movement behind it. Zack Snyder's Justice League had the backing of nearly a million people at the minimum, innumerable actors who worked on the film, and even the director himself. Every day that the film went unannounced was a day we spent advocating for it, and we would continue to advocate for years if necessary.
You should move on because it's never going to happen!
No movement ever accomplished anything by doing nothing. We would have moved on when Warner Bros released the Snyder Cut, and now they will. The point of any movement is to change the future. By default, yes, the Snyder Cut was never going to happen. This movement existed to change that. The answer is no, you move on first, considering how people still complain about Man of Steel and Batman v Superman.
But the chances of it happening are so slim! You'll be doing this forever!
The chances of getting the Snyder Cut were a complete unknown. The only dismissive sources were either unreliable or untrustworthy, especially in hindsight. You had little to no evidence whatsoever to make any judgements about our chances. Zack Snyder's encouragement means he knew there was a very real possibility that the Snyder Cut could happen, and the director of the film is pretty much the best source you can ask for. Our numbers had never been greater, and the studio had never been more aware of our combined voice.
- Warner Bros exploited the death of Snyder's own daughter to turn his film into an abomination during probably the darkest period of his life. That is a pure injustice that needs to be rectified.
- Both Zack Snyder and his team of hundreds dedicated love and passion to this project. It was a dream come true for so many who worked on it. To have that vision hidden away is an injustice. Not only have they supported the movement, but it is their film and they want their work shown to the world.
- Many actors were dragged back to production for reshoots, and they knew they were destroying the film they worked so hard on. They deserve to be rid of that bitterness.
- Countless actors and extras had their roles cut down or removed entirely from Justice League, including minority performances hidden away in a film that would otherwise have been a lot more diverse.
- Justice League is factually, tangibly, indisputably not Zack Snyder's movie, and yet his name has been unfairly attached to a film directed by Joss Whedon. Regardless of quality, Zack Snyder's Justice League will at least be Snyder's movie. The record needs to be set straight.
- The quality of Justice League has been blamed on Snyder while simultaneously Whedon has been praised for "fixing" or "improving" Snyder's film. The Snyder Cut would at least allow for a proper comparison between the two films to, again, set the record straight.
- The Snyder Cut is a triumph and statement of artistic integrity, showing meddling studios that butchering the dedicated work of your artists is a practice that will be condemned and fought against.
- Warner Bros advertised Justice League as a Zack Snyder film, that his vision was intact and being respected, even using incredible amounts of footage from the Snyder Cut in the movie's promotion. This is false advertising and the correct product must be delivered.
- It will be a resounding insult to every rotten, toxic, heartless, soulless pig whose entitled, unmitigated hate was rewarded in November 2017 by the exact film they claimed to want.
- So many of us loved Man of Steel and Batman v Superman, and even many who hated the films want to see a conclusion to this story after BvS. Regardless of how critics thought it was better than BvS (somehow), Justice League left everyone unsatisfied. With ZSJL, at least Snyder's fans will get the third chapter they were promised.
- Zack Snyder's Justice League was an announcement that brought joy to so many people during the COVID-19 pandemic, especially those who worked on the film. The film itself will bring further joy to those people in a dark time.
- The movement's altruistic nature has contributed tremendously to good causes, saving lives with the money spent campaigning and raising awareness for suicide prevention.
- If it is even half as good as BvS, it will be an absolutely incredible movie.
Some who dislike BvS still consider it to be a better movie than Justice League, and would much rather take a chance at Snyder's film over what they got. Some are just curious and could not care less about the film's quality. But even if the first item on the list above is not a priority for most supporters of the movement, it does not change the fact that supporting the Snyder Cut was the right thing to do. You did not have to support the movement and I never resented those who refused, but it is extremely disingenuous to actively oppose or ridicule the movement when its goal is inherently altruistic.
You would stand between Zack Snyder and the beloved project he lost during the darkest period of his life? You would hide away the work of countless talented artists who want it shown to the world? You would suppress the minority representation that Snyder's film was imbued with? You would continue to allow Snyder's name to be dragged with a film that is clearly not his? You would cowardly say Whedon "fixed" Snyder's film while never allowing anyone to compare? You would encourage studios to continue meddling with and butchering the work of their artists without condemnation? You would prohibit consequences for studios falsely advertising their films?
You would separate countless fans -- whose only sin was enjoying movies you hate -- from a harmless spark of joy during one of the darkest periods in recent human history? You would deny Ray Fisher the literal tears of joy he cried on a Twitch stream following the announcement? Or Jerad Marantz seeing his Steppenwolf design come to life? Or Ray Porter finally getting to show off his cherished Darkseid role? Or the VFX studios who were proud of their work in Zack Snyder's Justice League over Justice League? Or the fans who spent years fighting for the artistic freedom of a director they admired? That is disgusting. That is absolutely despicable and neither Batman nor Superman would smile upon you.
You only want the Snyder Cut because you didn't like the movie you got!
Depends on who you ask. I want ZSJL for all the reasons in the response above. I want the Snyder Cut because the movie we got was not the movie that Warner Bros advertised. We know, as indisputable fact, that the studio openly lied about the film, insisted that Snyder's vision was being preserved when it was not, and during the worst time in his life attached his name to a title that was predominantly directed by Joss Whedon. We wanted to see the completion and release of the film that Snyder shot.
When you see how bad the Snyder Cut is, you'll just pretend that there's some other "true" Snyder Cut and campaign for that!
Okay, genius, if you think that everyone universally shares your contempt for Snyder's films, then why do we not campaign for some other cut of Batman v Superman if that film is so bad? When we see the Snyder Cut, we will like/dislike the film and accept it, just as we did with the Ultimate Edition of BvS. People will form their opinions and move on, regardless of its quality. But we do not want the Snyder Cut simply because we want a better Justice League, but because there is a better Justice League, among innumerable other reasons, and now our efforts have guaranteed we will see it.
But Justice League was so bad! How can anything fix it?!
Zack Snyder was the original director of Justice League until he left six months into post-production due to a family tragedy. Joss Whedon came in to massively reshoot the film, resulting in a tiny minority of Snyder's film making it into the movie that was released in theatres. Zack Snyder's Justice League is not dredging up the stinking carcass of Whedon's film to build upon. It is the restoration and completion of the film Snyder was working on, only a fraction of which you have seen. It is not a "fix" or "recut" of Justice League because it is the restoration of a completely different, separate, whole other film that was locked away since 2017. Not a single shot from Whedon's reshoots will be in the final film. Virtually all of the issues in the theatrical film will not exist in Snyder's. Any flaws will instead be 100% on Snyder's filmmaking and Chris Terrio's writing.
All the bad stuff will still be in it because all the bad stuff was done by Zack Snyder!
How do you know? Have you determined exactly what parts are Whedon and what parts are Snyder? Have you determined the plot of Zack Snyder's Justice League to ascertain that major narrative issues are there too? Or determined that the character development is as thin in Snyder's film as Whedon's? Do you know if you have seen Snyder's pure, untarnished version of any sequences exactly as he intended them? No, you obviously have not.
But here is what we do know. Awful dialogue about brunch? Gone. Henry Cavill's CGI mouth? Gone. Ugly Steppenwolf who keeps referring to the mother box as "Mother" for no reason? Gone. Flash falling on Wonder Woman's chest? Gone. Ugly red colour grading? Gone. Character? Vastly extended character arcs and beefed-up development. Choppy editing? Gone. Messy action scenes? Gone. Dull use of music? Gone. Plot holes? Considering that most of the plot is built on Joss Whedon's reshoots, either the film will have significantly less plot holes or just replace them with new ones, but at least they will be Zack Snyder's plot holes. All the worst things about the 2017 film come from Whedon and the inherent butchering of the cohesive narrative.
Well, Snyder and Terrio made BvS as well, and that movie is a masterpiece, so it is not beyond the realm of possibility. Heaven forbid anyone love movies you hate.
But that is not the point. We do not want the Snyder Cut because we think it will be the best movie of all time. People like me expect it to be an excellent film, but the idea that we only want ZSJL because we assume it will be perfect and flawless is not something I have ever seen from any supporter. I have also never seen anyone say this film is going to be some ultimate pinnacle of cinematic achievement. I have seen people excited for it, stoked to watch it after years of campaigning and speculation.
You are just assuming that our fervent fight for the Snyder Cut must mean we think it is going to cure cancer. Maybe your problem is that, since you are an uninterested grump, any excitement for this film comes off as obnoxious. You hate these films, so anyone who is excited for ZSJL must therefore think it is going to be perfect, because there is no room for nuance among the hatedom. You also make the mistake of thinking that, when the movie comes out and you think it is bad, then we would surely agree with your totally infallible and gospel opinion. All this does is reinforce that you define "toxicity" and "cultism" as, "People who don't share my contempt for these films and their director."
Zack Snyder's Justice League will suck!
I disagree. I'm looking forward to it.
Look, everyone! He thinks the movie is going to be some amazing masterpiece!So, do you really see people who expect the movie to be the cure for cancer? Or can you just not fathom why people can be excited for a movie by a director you loathe?
The Snyder Cut is only one chapter of a larger series, so you will be left unsatisfied anyway because you won't be able to see the next films!
We are already unsatisfied. True, I may never see a proper conclusion to this five-film story even with the Snyder Cut, but at least this series will end with a satisfying film for someone as opposed to no one. The 2017 film came and went, and no one -- including the people who think it is better than Snyder's last title -- will cherish it like we cherish MoS or BvS. The latter is still my favourite film, and nothing can change that unless an even more personally appealing film comes along.
If you get the Snyder Cut, you'll just campaign for a sequel to Zack Snyder's Justice League!
Some of us, sure, but unless Zack Snyder believes and claims it is possible, we know that convincing the studio to fund a whole new film is a vastly less likely occurrence than getting the Snyder Cut. Due to the money going into ZSJL and the excessive teasing about future events, #RestoreTheSnyderVerse trended on 31 December 2020 to show that there is demand, but we are fully aware that Justice League Part 2 depends on how Zack Snyder's Justice League performs commercially. If the numbers are bad, then no amount of fan campaigning will convince the studio to make a whole film that cannot earn back its budget. All we can do is let our voices be heard.
"There were two topics that [Zack Snyder] would not discuss with me, because I had to get all these questions pre-approved. The first topic was whether or not this was closure for him, whether this is a one-and-done, 'I'm going to finish my Justice League vision. I'm going to deliver it and that will be it,' or whether he plans to continue, because that's absolutely a topic I wanted to discuss with him. And the second topic that he would not discuss was Geoff Johns." (Sean O'Connell, TheFilmJunkee, 12 June 2020)
"Yeah, I mean, I never thought I'd be here doing this, let's be frank! I never thought I'd be finishing Justice League. And look, the truth is -- and it's been widely reported, and I have no issue -- the DC universe has branched off and done its own thing, and that's fine. As far as what I did and as far as my vision for what I wanted to do with these characters and the journey I wanted them to go on, it's well known that I planned on more movies. It was five movies or something. But I'm busy. I've got a lot going on. So, is it cool that the fans have so much faith in the trajectory? Yes. It's amazing, and I couldn't be happier and I'm excited for them to see Justice League so they can drink the entire elixir. But as far as, 'Would I go continue?' I have no plan to, but, like I said, I didn't think I'd be here, so who knows?" (Zack Snyder, ComicBook Debate, 4 January 2021)
We are also campaigning for David Ayer's intended cut of Suicide Squad, since we know his film was ruined by the studio too. This may even grow into a new age for director-driven films and artistic integrity, and new movements will spring up in defence of the vision of other directors to demonstrate that there is no more tolerance for studio meddling.
If Warner Bros was going to release the Snyder Cut, they would have by now! So where is it?!
Imagine saying that a movement is pointless because the goal has not yet been achieved. The idea that a movement's chances of success depend on whether or not it has actually succeeded yet is literally some of the very dumbest logic I have ever heard. There should be an award for how unfathomably idiotic that is. This is like concluding you will starve to death because you are not currently in the kitchen. This criticism ignores that the whole point of the Snyder Cut movement was to convince Warner Bros to release the Snyder Cut. As you can see, our efforts succeeded.
This movement existed to convince Warner Bros to release Zack Snyder's film. Superman II: The Richard Donner Cut took nearly 26 years to be released with much less movement behind it. Zack Snyder's Justice League had the backing of nearly a million people at the minimum, innumerable actors who worked on the film, and even the director himself. Every day that the film went unannounced was a day we spent advocating for it, and we would continue to advocate for years if necessary.
But the movie would cost too much to finish!
This criticism was made based on zero evidence. It was merely an assumption. No one knew how much the film would cost to finish in comparison to how many people were asking for it. Today, we have no accurate estimate for the movie's budget, but whatever it is, the studio has clearly calculated the risks and confirmed that our movement was sufficient demand to warrant the production of the supply. Prior to the announcement, we never had any reason to believe otherwise.
No movement ever accomplished anything by doing nothing. We would have moved on when Warner Bros released the Snyder Cut, and now they will. The point of any movement is to change the future. By default, yes, the Snyder Cut was never going to happen. This movement existed to change that. The answer is no, you move on first, considering how people still complain about Man of Steel and Batman v Superman.
But the chances of it happening are so slim! You'll be doing this forever!
The chances of getting the Snyder Cut were a complete unknown. The only dismissive sources were either unreliable or untrustworthy, especially in hindsight. You had little to no evidence whatsoever to make any judgements about our chances. Zack Snyder's encouragement means he knew there was a very real possibility that the Snyder Cut could happen, and the director of the film is pretty much the best source you can ask for. Our numbers had never been greater, and the studio had never been more aware of our combined voice.
Zack Snyder probably wants to move on, so stop bothering him!
Zack Snyder supported the movement as fervently as we did. He used the hashtag on Twitter, encouraged the movement with events and teases, thanked his supporters, had the support of his cast and crew, had very openly expressed the desire to shoot additional material for his film, officially branded the movie as Zack Snyder's Justice League, and screened the film to executives to convince them that finishing it is worthwhile. If anything, Snyder is the leader of this movement. We would not have lasted this long without him validating our efforts. You must be confusing Zack Snyder with Richard Donner, who wanted nothing to do with assembling The Richard Donner Cut until he eventually gave in after all the pressure from fans and the studio. You do not care about the well-being of Zack Snyder (or Ben Affleck, for that matter). You just want this film (and Affleck's Batman) to stay buried.
Zack Snyder supported the movement as fervently as we did. He used the hashtag on Twitter, encouraged the movement with events and teases, thanked his supporters, had the support of his cast and crew, had very openly expressed the desire to shoot additional material for his film, officially branded the movie as Zack Snyder's Justice League, and screened the film to executives to convince them that finishing it is worthwhile. If anything, Snyder is the leader of this movement. We would not have lasted this long without him validating our efforts. You must be confusing Zack Snyder with Richard Donner, who wanted nothing to do with assembling The Richard Donner Cut until he eventually gave in after all the pressure from fans and the studio. You do not care about the well-being of Zack Snyder (or Ben Affleck, for that matter). You just want this film (and Affleck's Batman) to stay buried.
"I make this very clear in the book. Zack, at any point in the course of this journey, could have turned around and said, 'Guys, stop. I know what you're trying to do. I love it. I admire it. Thank you. I hear you, I feel you, but there is no Snyder Cut. And hey, I've got Army of the Dead coming, and a bunch of other projects I want to do.' But he never stopped pushing and encouraging." (Sean O'Connell, Justice Con, 26 July 2020)
If the Snyder Cut existed, or if Snyder really cared, then why doesn't he release it?!
Snyder has iterated at least twice now that he never had the power to finish and release the movie. Just because he is the director does not mean the movie legally belongs to him. He did not possess the rights to release the film, much less the power to make Warner Bros finish it. Any reasonable person knows this.
Snyder has iterated at least twice now that he never had the power to finish and release the movie. Just because he is the director does not mean the movie legally belongs to him. He did not possess the rights to release the film, much less the power to make Warner Bros finish it. Any reasonable person knows this.
"I mean, all I'll tell you is that... for sure there's a cut. It's done. I have a cut. I have a bunch of 'em. So it's not like... It's just up to them." (Zack Snyder, ArtCentre College, 24 March 2019)
"When will I release it? Look, the truth is -- I've said it before -- I'm not really in control of it necessarily. I mean, I've said it exists and I've been very clear with what I did with it, but it's not really up to me per se. If it was up to me, I would've probably already, like, left it on a thumb drive in a bathroom somewhere." (Zack Snyder, Man of Steel Watch Party, 20 May 2020)
When art has been put out to the public, it shouldn't be altered like George Lucas did with the original Star Wars trilogy!
Justice League is not art [See below]. Secondly, Zack Snyder's Justice League is a completely different film by a completely different director. It is not the alteration of Whedon's film, but the completion and restoration of Snyder's unseen film. None of Joss Whedon's footage will be retained. Absolutely zero. So, the film released in 2021 will be a totally separate thing that has not yet been made public, a near-pure work of Zack Snyder. There are no changes being made to released art. There is only the release of unseen art.
Justice League is not art [See below]. Secondly, Zack Snyder's Justice League is a completely different film by a completely different director. It is not the alteration of Whedon's film, but the completion and restoration of Snyder's unseen film. None of Joss Whedon's footage will be retained. Absolutely zero. So, the film released in 2021 will be a totally separate thing that has not yet been made public, a near-pure work of Zack Snyder. There are no changes being made to released art. There is only the release of unseen art.
Good joke. Everybody laugh.
Joss Whedon's garbage film is the destruction, and most certainly not art. He was hired to butcher the art of a peer to give the studio a film more like The Avengers, and he did it in exchange for money and a chance at directing a Batgirl actress he could drool over. He was hired to make a soulless, pandering product at the expense of art. Zack Snyder's Justice League is the restoration of Snyder's near-pure art that was destroyed back in 2017, and Whedon's hollow corporate trash can be put in the past like a bad memory, where it belongs. Good riddance.
Joss Whedon saved Zack Snyder's film! Snyder should be grateful!
We both know you only say this because you care a whole lot more about invalidating Zack Snyder's Justice League than you value Joss Whedon's trashy film. You know that Whedon's movie is nothing like Snyder's, transformed into something he would never, ever want. You know that Snyder is a big fan of artistic integrity and would never be happy with another director ripping his film to shreds against his will. What should he think? "Thanks, Joss, for turning my film into a shadow of its former self for a soulless corporate product that everyone dislikes, including my only fans. Thanks for ruining my passion project during the worst year of my life for literally no benefit."
Most of all, you know that Zack Snyder is not obligated to agree that you think Whedon "saved" his movie. Neither are his fans. We are all entitled to our opinion that Whedon's film is one of the worst ever produced in the genre, which is factually correct. The very idea of the 2017 film invalidates it as a good movie. Even if Batman v Superman was as bad as its detractors said, it would still be a masterpiece in comparison to Justice League by default by virtue of being the pure and unrestrained artistic vision of its director.
Nothing was saved. The butchering did not create some timeless classic. It did not make more money than BvS. It did not "save" the DCEU and has already been reduced to a bad memory, leaving everyone unsatisfied. Those who call it a superior film do not treasure it like anyone treasures BvS. The mere idea of the Snyder Cut leaves a bigger impression than the 2017 movie. So why should anyone, much less Snyder, whose name was attached to something he never wanted, call this a "saved" film?
The Snyder Cut is an annoying conversation!
Let me get this through every skull right now: No one is forcing you to care about this. No one forced this movement on you. No one is forcing you to look forward to Zack Snyder's Justice League. People just disagree with you in public forums. No one is forcing you to follow Snyder Cut news, click the articles, watch the trailers, look at the photos, open the threads, or join the conversation. If you do not care, then ignore it. If you do not want the Snyder Cut, then shut up. If you hate these films, then do not watch it. If you hate getting backlash for your ridiculous takes, then stop whining about it.
Let me get this through every skull right now: No one is forcing you to care about this. No one forced this movement on you. No one is forcing you to look forward to Zack Snyder's Justice League. People just disagree with you in public forums. No one is forcing you to follow Snyder Cut news, click the articles, watch the trailers, look at the photos, open the threads, or join the conversation. If you do not care, then ignore it. If you do not want the Snyder Cut, then shut up. If you hate these films, then do not watch it. If you hate getting backlash for your ridiculous takes, then stop whining about it.
You can be completely indifferent to the whole thing, but we both know that you seek this conversation. We cannot go five minutes without one of you strolling along to tell us the film will be terrible and that no one should be excited for it. I revile the MCU, but I did not complain about the Avengers: Endgame conversation after it came out in theatres, nor do I pursue the spaces of MCU fans to rant about how they should stop being interested in the things I dislike. I avoid the topic and I am healthy for it.
What you hate is that our conversation and investment have become increasingly mainstream. You hate that we so commonly love something you despise. You hate what we stand for, the director we support, and the films he makes. Most of all, you hate seeing Snyder's art being validated. You are not annoyed by us. You just want to be our enemy, going out of your way to sneer and scoff at every moment of joy we experience, even during a global pandemic. You want to destroy our excitement and eradicate our appreciation for these things, and you will never stop until we agree with your contempt for these films and their director. Of course, you could prove me wrong by shutting up, but that was never an option, was it?
You are so, so desperate for something to be right about, aren't you? Any kind of validation you can get your hands on.
Principal photography was completed on the original "Snyder Cut". The film was put together into a watchable 214-minute cut in an editing suite, the score was complete, and VFX were at least mostly finished when Snyder took it with him on a thumb drive when he left the project back in 2017. That, by definition, is the Snyder Cut, and it necessarily exists. To Snyder, that cut was done, whatever you take that to mean.
However, that is not Zack Snyder's Justice League. This new film is a much larger radical overhaul and revamp of the movie and its production design to make it more in line with Snyder's vision after the compromises he was forced to make back in 2016 and 2017 following the release of BvS. The result is around 25 minutes of extra footage from the assembly cut and roughly 4-5 minutes of additional photography shot in 2020 to bring the runtime to 4 hours, significant updates to the entire film's visuals like reinserting the black suit and reverting Steppenwolf to his original design from Batman v Superman, and an updated soundtrack. As such, when announced, this version of the Snyder Cut did not exist because additional filming and cutting was required to get it where Snyder wanted.
"I have famously advertised the runtime at 214 minutes. ... Now, in it's current state, it's going to end up being longer than that yet. It's exciting to bring all this new material to the fans." (Zack Snyder, Beyond The Trailer, 20 July 2020)
"I will say, in the end, it's going to be about four or five minutes of additional photography. In the four hours that is Justice League, maybe four minutes. I don't know if you've seen a lot of movies -- there's a few, but there's not a lot of movies that have four minutes of additional photography beyond what was shot in principal. Most movies have quite a bit more than that, and the cool thing about this film is that it is a pure extraction from the script that Chris and I worked on, that Chris wrote. It is directly from the page through the prism that is the experience of making a movie, working with these amazing actors and then creating this epic story." (Zack Snyder, Beyond The Trailer, 13 November 2020)
All this necessarily means getting back the old VFX teams, sound designers, and wardrobe department, arranging catering for the additional photography, recovering production assets, negotiating contracts, consulting lawyers, and so much more, which costs money.
Zack Snyder said the film was finished, so he was lying!
The idea here is that Zack Snyder seemingly claimed his movie was finished prior to the success of the movement in order to encourage the campaign. He did not. The cut was done, as in the edit was done, not the film itself. He speaks in very specific filmmaking lingo because he is a filmmaker, and continued using the exact same language to describe his old cut in the months after the 20 May announcement, distinguishing between a finished cut and a finished film. Prior, Snyder had freely shown the 214-minute film was unfinished, so how could he have lied? You can even see how, in one interview below, he says both that the 214-minute cut was finished and that he does did not want Ray Fisher to see himself in the mo-cap pyjamas.
"Film is not 100% finished. Still some stuff I want to do, as with every film I've made. Not sure what difference it makes as to the finished level of the film." (Zack Snyder, Vero, 24 December 2019)
"Also, the cut I'm working on was finished in February of 2017. The cut was finished. That's the giant, super long version of the movie; my kind of ultimate penultimate version, and then the work we did in the subsequent months was to shorten the movie to the studio mandate that we never really got to." (Zack Snyder, Justice Con, 25 July 2020)
"[Ray Fisher's] not gonna see it, I'll tell ya. Or not for a while. And I'll tell you why. Because the movie's gotta be done. It's gotta be close to done. It's a lot about him. He doesn't want to see himself in the pyjamas because, frankly, he had to wear some pyjamas for 90% of the movie." (Zack Snyder, Justice Con, 25 July 2020)
In other words, you were at least right that the film was unfinished, if nothing else. Why are you trying to be wrong now? Why are you throwing out your very last shred of credibility on accusing the director of lying for no good reason?
The Snyder Cut is only five minutes longer than the 2017 film!
This criticism originates from deceptive, clickbait headlines that blatantly obscure Snyder's words in the interview where he explicitly says that the additional photography done in 2020 will only constitute four to five minutes of the four hours that is Zack Snyder's Justice League. For once, just stop listening to what you are told and hear the man for yourself...
"I will say, in the end, it's going to be about four or five minutes of additional photography. In the four hours that is Justice League, maybe four minutes. I don't know if you've seen a lot of movies -- there's a few, but there's not a lot of movies that have four minutes of additional photography beyond what was shot in principal. Most movies have quite a bit more than that, and the cool thing about this film is that it is a pure extraction from the script that Chris and I worked on, that Chris wrote. It is directly from the page through the prism that is the experience of making a movie, working with these amazing actors and then creating this epic story." (Zack Snyder, Beyond The Trailer, 13 November 2020)
The original budget for Justice League was between $250 and $300 million, while the budget for Zack Snyder's Justice League is an estimated $70 million. Most of that budget is going into not just finishing the original VFX of the 214-minute cut, but to massively revamp existing footage. Principal photography for Justice League took 125 days in total, and Whedon's reshoots took about 55 days, but additional photography in October 2020 for Zack Snyder's Justice League took a few weeks at most and amounted to a mere 5 minutes of new footage, hardly enough to constitute a remake. The other 25 minutes to get the film to four hours comes from the assembly cut. Do you seriously believe that constitutes redoing the entire movie to the extent that Whedon did?
The RTSC movement campaigned for the completion of the Justice League that Zack Snyder shot, and would have gladly settled for that. We never thought to ask for something better, yet we got so much more. We did not campaign for nothing when we got a bigger, better version of the Snyder Cut. It is so strange that there are people who would try to take that away, to call this is their victory over us, like we are fuming for getting more than we had ever hoped, to invalidate our overwhelming victory because we campaigned for so little compared to what we ultimately got. We won so hard that our opponents are literally pretending that we are unhappy. This is like saying, "Too bad, you were hoping your disease was something you could live with, but instead, you got outright cured! What a loser!"
Possible Contradiction: This contradicts the criticism that the Snyder Cut will be no different from the 2017 movie. Which is it? Will the movie just be a longer version of the 2017 film or is it a complete remake?
Snyder has had years to go over criticisms of the 2017 film and iron out the flaws, so it's not going to be the Snyder Cut you campaigned for!
The 2017 film is mostly Joss Whedon's garbage. Snyder is not going to make up for problems created by Whedon in a completely different film he still refuses to watch. He certainly will be making changes, primarily in restoring his pre-compromise vision, not making up for flaws in a totally different film. This criticism is just another version of the last, and ignores that the bigger, better version of the Snyder Cut is no less something we want. Why would we feel bad that we are getting even more than we asked for?
But the Hollywood Reporter article said it's got "no visual effects, no post-production"!
The THR article is objectively wrong. We have seen VFX work done on Justice League prior to Snyder's exit from the film in two separate trailers in 2016 and 2017. On Snyder's Vero, we have seen finished VFX shots of scenes that were not in the theatrical film. Junkie XL confirmed that his score was finished before Warner Bros removed him from the project, yet has returned to extend his score further. VFX supervisor John DesJardin has said, "Many VFX shots are complete." Do you really think that four hours worth of post-production from scratch for a $275,000,000 film can be done on a budget of an estimated $70 million within seven months?
It's so unfinished that Snyder is going to include Joss Whedon's reshoots!
This is a rumour derived from a video published by Heroic Hollywood on 30 May 2020 where the highly unreliable Umberto Gonzalez suggested that Zack Snyder would be including footage from Joss Whedon's reshoots for Justice League in his film. Snyder put this garbage in the ground...
"No. There would be no chance on Earth that I would use a shot that was made after I left the movie. I would rather destroy the movie. I would set it on fire before I would use a single frame that I did not photograph. That is a f--king hard fact. I would literally blow that f--king thing up if I thought for a second... By the way, anything you see in this movie that reminds you of the other theatrical release -- which, again, famously, I have literally never seen -- would be because that was a thing I had done, and now was being borrowed from whatever Frankenstein's monster that you guys saw in the theatre." (Zack Snyder, Justice Con, 25 July 2020)
That means zero CGI upper lip, baby.
You'll like the movie no matter how bad it is!
You will hate the movie no matter how good it is. Critics of this movement, who spent years spitting on Zack Snyder's name and doing everything in their power to discredit us, are as invested in seeing this movie fail as we are in seeing in thrive. Furthermore, this will ultimately come down to your own personal belief that the movie is bad. You are fully capable of being wrong. When the movie comes out, I doubt we would even need to convince ourselves the movie is good, but you will convince yourself that the movie is bad, and that failure to agree with you must mean we are suffering from cognitive dissonance. If critics think ZSJL is a bad film, then they will be either right or wrong, but their consensus will not be proof of the movie's quality, just as with BvS. Neither will ours. The movie's quality will speak for itself, whatever it may be.
You wanted this, so don't complain when the movie's bad!
If we agree with you that the film is bad. If we dislike the film. Those of us who dislike Zack Snyder's Justice League will accept it, voice any complaints valid or invalid, and move on. Considering what we have taken from you over the past half-decade since BvS, the huge majority of Snyder fans who might dislike the film are not going to respond the way you did to that movie. Plus, we do not just want a better Justice League. We want vindication for the filmmakers who were unable to finish a beloved product, among other things mentioned earlier in this post. Our support for Zack Snyder's artistic freedom does not mean we need to like every title he produces. I, for one, will be happy even if I believe the movie is bad. It would be a worthy goal nonetheless. However, I very strongly expect it will be good.
Spoiler alert: It was.
Possible Hypocrisy: When Justice League was radically revamped into a hollow corporate product to appease conceited people like you at the cost of artistic vision, did you have any qualms about criticising the film you said you wanted? Did you think to yourself, "Well, I wanted this and cheered for Joss Whedon to save this movie, so I have no cause to complain"? No. No one did. You killed the DCEU, and then you complained.
The studio is only releasing the Snyder Cut because they need a film to sell during the Coronavirus pandemic! And because HBO Max was doing poorly and they got desperate! The movement accomplished nothing!
HBO Max launched on 27 May 2020. Zack and Deborah Snyder were contacted by their agent on 18 November 2019, the morning after the massive worldwide trending of #ReleaseTheSnyderCut, to inform them that Toby Emmerich (chairman of Warner Bros Pictures) was willing to discuss the Snyder Cut in response to it officially becoming the most-tweeted hashtag of any film the company had produced. We know serious conversations began in January, and a screening was held in February with favourable reactions. This was the month before COVID became a pandemic and nearly four months before the launch of HBO Max. The film was officially greenlit on 30 April and Zack Snyder's Justice League was announced on 20 May, seven days prior to the launch of HBO Max.
"People thought, 'It won’t be possible to ramp up, and that maybe this should go on the back burner.' But we said, 'No, this is the right time' because our visual effects houses that rely on so much are running out of work, so now is the time to be doing this." (Deborah Snyder, Hollywood Reporter, 20 May 2020)
The original estimated budget for Zack Snyder's Justice League was between $20 and $30 million, but when asked about it, Head of HBO Max Bob Greenblatt said: "Yeah, I'll just say I wish it was just $30 million." (32:34) Forbes writer Mark Hughes claims the actual budget is around $40 to $50 million. Snyder estimates the budget is $70 million. Do you really think this kind of money would be spent on a streaming film where demand played no role? Obviously, COVID and subscriptions were a motivator, but if we were so inconsequential, then they would not make this kind of investment when they are suffering from the virus. There would be no faith that the film could make money. The movement clearly convinced someone that there is a built-in fanbase for this movie, ready and willing to pay handsomely to watch it. As such, they are giving us more than we ever asked for.
"We were trying very hard to be able to announce [the Snyder Cut] before the launch [of HBO Max] because we knew it would be very well received, but we started talking about it, I want to say, in last Fall." (Bob Greenblatt, Recode Media, 33:49, 26 May 2020)
Besides, the movement has donated over $500,000 to the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention. Is that not an accomplishment?
Possible Contradiction: This contradicts the criticism that the Snyder Cut movement accomplished its goals by bullying the studio into giving us what we want. For obvious reasons.
Superman II: The Richard Donner Cut was significantly cheaper to restore and no studio egos were pushing against it. Despite that, it took nearly 26 years before it happened. If the studio was going to release the Snyder Cut without the large campaign we organised, why did it take 2.5 years and several discouraging press releases before they announced it?
Why can't you be humble after getting what you want?!
For two-and-a-half years, you have insulted, mocked, and belittled our movement, telling us this film would never happen with all the condescending smugness you could muster, calling us anything from weirdos to cultists to terrorists basically every day. You were not humble before the announcement, and you were not humble afterwards when you were proven wrong, saying instead that our victory sets a "bad precedent" and desperately clinging to something, anything to be right about, and a significant portion of you were not humble after Zack Snyder's Justice League came out, insisting it was still bad and gloating at every indication that the planned sequels would never be made. Of all the toxic "journalists" with a bone to pick with Zack Snyder and us, none of them ever had the humility to admit they were wrong or apologise for talking down to us, and you expect us to take the Snyder Cut with anything less than a mammoth "I told you so"? When finally our movie is receiving praise across the board? Heck no! We have no obligation to be humble, nor should we. Snyderverse fans have taken the derision for nearly five years. I think we are entitled to a little gloating, don't you think?
Find the guts to admit you were wrong for all those toxic years you antagonised us with contempt over this. We can talk about humility when you learn some for yourself. Until then, you seriously deserve this bitter pill.
The success of the Snyder Cut movement will encourage angry audiences to campaign for other directors' cuts to be released!
Good. Directors are not just employees who churn out products. Some are, sure, like Joss Whedon, but a hefty portion of them fit the definition of artists and auteurs -- people who actually care about and cherish the film they are crafting. If they put love and passion into a project they care about, the film they promised to make for a studio should be the one that gets released in theatres. If not, then a director's cut is the least a studio can do. If a director's cut is denied, that is an injustice, essentially sealing away a piece of art against the will of the artist. Campaigning to rectify that injustice, to stand up for artists in a creatively starved industry, is absolutely a good thing.
This is not like some guy commissioning an artist on DeviantArt to draw something for them. Studios are long past commissioning artists to bring the studio's vision to life. They are commissioning artists to bring the artist's vision to life. That is the whole point of hiring a director instead of the executives making the films themselves. The studio has no art in mind but the director's, believing the director's art can make them money, and that is all a studio wants.
Good. Directors are not just employees who churn out products. Some are, sure, like Joss Whedon, but a hefty portion of them fit the definition of artists and auteurs -- people who actually care about and cherish the film they are crafting. If they put love and passion into a project they care about, the film they promised to make for a studio should be the one that gets released in theatres. If not, then a director's cut is the least a studio can do. If a director's cut is denied, that is an injustice, essentially sealing away a piece of art against the will of the artist. Campaigning to rectify that injustice, to stand up for artists in a creatively starved industry, is absolutely a good thing.
This is not like some guy commissioning an artist on DeviantArt to draw something for them. Studios are long past commissioning artists to bring the studio's vision to life. They are commissioning artists to bring the artist's vision to life. That is the whole point of hiring a director instead of the executives making the films themselves. The studio has no art in mind but the director's, believing the director's art can make them money, and that is all a studio wants.
The release of the Snyder Cut is validation for the toxic Snyder fandom! Releasing the Snyder Cut sets a bad precedent that toxic fans can bully a studio into doing what they want!
This is the most ridiculous, exaggerated, hyperbolic, malicious hysteria I have ever seen around a film since the narrative that Joker promotes mass shootings. Classy HBO Max overseer Tony Goncalves explained well in his response to a scummy question in this interview with CNET...
Q: Last week, HBO Max announced that next year it would release the fabled "Snyder cut" of 2017's Justice League movie. As one of my colleagues put it, how many more disappointing movies will get the same treatment? And is there any concern about creating an entitled fandom mentality?
Tony Goncalves: Zero comment on the first part of that question. To the second part, look, there's a fandom around Friends, which is why the reunion is such an epic moment for television. Look, I go back to: The consumer absolutely has to guide your decisions, and given what we've put together, it's pretty evident that we've listened.The narrative of "toxic Snyder fans" is a stereotype applied to everyone who possesses the unpopular opinion that a certain film is good and another film should be released. The grain of truth to this stereotype is that there is a tiny minority whose behaviour is equally or still less severe than the average behaviour of this movement's critics. Every good cause on this Earth has served some bad guy too. Every hero's win benefits a villain. For every great movement, some undeniably evil people gained something from the results. There are and will always be good and just causes regardless of who supports them.
A lot of the stereotype comes from snobby and elitist journalists and film critics who look down their noses at anyone stepping out of line. But most of all, it comes down to very thin skin. Critics spout legitimate hostility online and then break down when they get reasonable backlash. They consistently repeat debunked clichés and call everyone who corrects them a "cultist". They constantly criticise us for the same behaviour they display often, like dogpiling tweets they find dumb, or just making firm and authoritative statements, but when the same happens to them, the fact that the backlash comes from Snyder fans apparently makes it toxic. Most of all, more often than not, they literally define toxicity as mere disagreement over the quality of these films, even if we keep it to ourselves. That is an opinion we simply cannot have. Claims like, "Zack Snyder hates and doesn't understand Superman!" are parroted daily, while, "You don't understand BvS," is seen as comparable to racism. Not to mention the outright lies, like the "rape and death threats" that are never substantiated by evidence or screenshots upon request, except for months or even years apart. Between the hatedom and the RTSC movement, the hatedom is undeniably worse in every way imaginable, and I shudder to imagine how many threats Snyder got since 2013.
In this article about a "toxic fanbase" after the announcement, the author never has the guts to admits she was wrong, having written this passive-aggressive article a few months prior, telling us the Snyder Cut would never happen after the November 2019 trending. The person who posted this thread on NeoGAF called RTSC supporters "dense" and said, "The movie they've been screaming about for 3 years is never happening." Nineteen days later, when it became clear the Snyder Cut was happening, he completely changed the subject in that same thread to the toxicity of the movement. This phenomenon is everywhere now, whereas I can only find one article prior to the announcement saying that supplying our demand would be setting a bad precedent. Is it not just a little telling? Could it be that the goal was always to invalidate this movement, and now that they lost hard, they are sore losers who have moved the goalpost to saving face? Could it be that the contempt for Snyder's films is so great that it can only be justified by presenting it as a moral crusade?
This criticism is the final concession of defeat. When all that belittling of the RTSC movement came down to embarrassment at being proven wrong, all they had left was to direct their focus to the "toxicity" narrative and insist that our victory is a bad thing. So many articles by journalists with a long history of antagonism are written with oddly similar structure and language to declare that ZSJL sets a bad precedent, despite far worse having happened countless times to the utter silence of the same weirdos who write this hogwash. A lot of them reference each other too, so you can tell this narrative spreads like a cancer, and likely has a degree of organisation, much like the "raped in prison" smear campaign back in May 2016.
So really, when you say, "The Snyder Cut would validate toxic fandom and bullying!" what you mean is, "The Snyder Cut would invalidate my narrative and strip away my victory of destroying Zack Snyder's film!" Releasing the Snyder Cut is a slap to the face of entitled toxic mobs and sets a precedent that we will hold studios accountable for the abhorrent treatment of their directors and the lies they tell their customers. That is moving in the right direction. The hatedom never did anything to make this industry better. The Snyder Cut is literally one of the best things "fandom" has ever done, and the people who oppose that are nothing but villains.
"It's just a bunch of BS. In regards to that toxic fandom, or it's 'a win for toxic fandom,' again, in what world does this 'toxic fandom' raise hundreds of thousands of dollars for suicide prevention? How is that toxic fandom? They've probably achieved more than any other fan base, [and done more] good than any other group. So I don't understand." (Zack Snyder, Release The Snyder Cut, 1 March 2021)
Possible Hypocrisy: Too late! 52 years too late. In 1968, fans of Star Trek literally protested against the mere rumours the series would be cancelled. Veronica Mars fans spent $2 million on a Kickstarter to revive their beloved series as a film. (Celebrity) fans of The Expanse hired a plane to fly a #SaveTheExpanse banner over Amazon Studios. Fans of Roswell, Sense8, and Reaper and so many other threatened shows organised to send tabasco sauce to The WB, sandals to Netflix, and socks to The CW to protest their shows' cancellations. 430,000 MCU fans signed a petition to rehire James Gunn when he got fired after his disturbing Tweets were unearthed, and 6,000 MCU fans pledged to literally storm the Sony Pictures HQ to demand that Spider-Man be handed over to Disney. The design for Sonic in Sonic The Hedgehog (2020) was changed in response to fan backlash after the first trailer premiered a reviled character design. To say nothing of the petitions. All these campaigns were rewarded with success. You do not get to complain about "bad precedents" now. However, aside from just being less toxic overall, the difference between the Snyder Cut movement and all the aforementioned brigades is that the goals of this movement are also ethically motivated.
Possible Hypocrisy: Critics of Zack Snyder revile the man, inventing blatant lies to assassinate his character, celebrated and mocked his daughter's death, use juvenile names like "Hack Snyder", accuse him of hating Superman and failing to understand the characters, and so much more. To say nothing of just how many are also MCU fans who sent death threats over meaningless details, beat up a guy for spoilers, bullied a little girl, and threatened some slight domestic terrorism. Where was this narrative when Star Wars: The Force Awakens was pandering to the toxic fans who ruined Jake Lloyd's life and drove Ahmed Best to the brink of suicide? After the galactic tantrum following BvS, Warner Bros forced Snyder and Terrio to rewrite the script for Justice League and even invited critics onto the set just to reassure them. Shortly thereafter, the film was altered against the grieving director's will to placate the toxic waste, and it was all for nothing. Where was the condemnation and outrage of appeasing terrorists and toxic fandom then? What makes our outrage at the treatment of a director so much worse than your outrage at not getting the movies you wanted? Because instead of complaining about toxic fandom, all I heard was, "DC is finally moving in the right direction," literally praised for bowing to the angry mob. "Bad precedent!" just means, "I want the studio to bend to my will alone!"
Do not even get me started on death threats. Heck, Rebecca Black got death threats just for her song.
But the goal was achieved by bullying! It's bullying a studio!
Bullying? It is called demand. The public expresses demand and businesses supply that demand. The only thing the studio cares about is money. Nothing we did threatened them. The goal was achieved because #ReleaseTheSnyderCut was the biggest hashtag on 19 November 2019. Our voices were loud enough that AT&T heard our demand and supplied it. Any bad behaviour within the Snyder Cut movement only hampered our goals by dissuading others from supporting.
You cannot bully a giant multi-billion dollar entertainment tycoon. The employees who shuffled through the Snyder Cut mail or phone operators who answered our calls were not victims for doing their jobs exactly as intended. In fact, we even sent a gift basket in appreciation. Heck, after the announcement, AT&T outright asked us to get the hashtag trending again. Screw any studio executive who was against the Snyder Cut, as petty personal vendettas against Zack Snyder's artwork should not override the goal of a business.
Possible Contradiction: This contradicts the criticism that the Snyder Cut movement accomplished nothing and that HBO Max would have released the film during COVID-19 anyway.
Instead of spending some of the Snyder Cut campaign funds on charity, why not spend all of it on charity?! It's a waste to spend the rest on asking for a film!
You say this as if the other $500,000+ does not a great act of charity make. At least we are doing something, and our donations have saved lives. Incessant whining about a lack of red underwear on Superman never made the world a better place. No lives were saved by smearing a film director who would not let you write his film. Here is a response to this kind of vitriol, written by a moderator on r/DC_Cinematic...
Instead of spending some of the Snyder Cut campaign funds on charity, why not spend all of it on charity?! It's a waste to spend the rest on asking for a film!
You say this as if the other $500,000+ does not a great act of charity make. At least we are doing something, and our donations have saved lives. Incessant whining about a lack of red underwear on Superman never made the world a better place. No lives were saved by smearing a film director who would not let you write his film. Here is a response to this kind of vitriol, written by a moderator on r/DC_Cinematic...
Hey folks,
An unsettling trend that has been observed in posts covering this movement/event has been the backhanded put-downs concerning the split fundraising. We have users low-key shaming those involved for putting money towards two causes they believe in. This often takes the form of snide remarks to the effect of, "Well, they should have donated it all to charity," or, "Too bad they threw half of their money away."
I have to say that this is a new low for the fandom, for armchair observers to idly bemoan and belittle the marriage of fan interests and humanitarian work. In our current media environment, where social communications, pop cultural interests, and shared values often meet, this is a common synthesis of fandom and philanthropy. To treat this form of organised giving as some outlier is both disingenuous and misanthropic.
No one here is shaming folks for not volunteering their hard-earned money towards the [#ReleaseTheSnyderCut] movement or the [American Foundation for Suicide Prevention]. On the other hand, the recreational spite directed against this fundraising effort is unprovoked, a voluntary non-contribution by those who feel a sense of situational superiority over those who have actually put their resources towards the betterment and preservation of others in parallel with the calls of their fandom.
...The bizarre behaviour described above, the targeting and shaming of others over their giving, is simply inappropriate. It is particularly insidious coming from those idly dictating the value of these donations when they themselves have no honest or tangible involvement with the issues at hand. Those who continue to make a sport of this recreational insincerity will be treated as what they are: concern trolls with no cause. It is your individual prerogative as fans to pursue what you are fans of within our shared subject. Anti-fandom has long been an issue for us as a community, but this latest proclivity has crossed a definite line.
If you think it is a waste because you think Snyder's films are bad, then you need to recognise that a whole lot of us expect to enjoy Zack Snyder's Justice League because we also enjoyed Man of Steel and Batman v Superman. These films appeal to us, so what you think of Snyder's films is irrelevant. We expect differently because we enjoy these films. Thankfully, you do not get to decide what should matter to us.
How much money do you spend on movies every year? Why not spend all of that money on charity? You have spent unfathomably more money on your own gratification than you will ever spend on a good cause, when you have probably spent hundreds on tickets for Disney movies you never brush off as "a waste of money that could go to a good cause." When it comes to wasting money, take a look in the mirror. Do not insult my intelligence by expecting me to believe that you care about the poor, the sick, the struggling, or the marginalised. You say this because you hate that we are getting a film we want that you wanted to stay buried. If we never spent a single cent on the Snyder Cut campaign or charity, you would not be outraged at all. You would rather we spend zero money on charity than spend any money on the Snyder Cut. You will weaponize the tragedies and suffering of innocent people as a cudgel to beat those who help them. Frankly, you deserve all the "toxicity" you get.
"Every movie ticket they've ever bought could feed a starving child for a week. If people really want to start equivocating, they're going to find a slippery slope on their hands." (Stephen M Colbert, Twitter, 25 September 2020)
Take a look at what the hatedom does. They spend real money on Reddit Gold and gilding idiotic idiotic comments and threads like these on r/DC_Cinematic that express a disdain for Zack Snyder and the investment/people around him.
This is the good cause. Where do you think the budget for this film is going? You do not seriously believe that the cash physically transforms into a complete film, do you? Not only is Zack Snyder finishing this movie for free without a paycheck, but that budget pays the salaries of VFX artists, sound designers, and other filmmakers who desperately need work during this difficult time. Zack Snyder's Justice League is giving people jobs. You're welcome. We'll take our medals now. Plus, on 27 March 2020, nearly two months before the Snyder Cut announcement, it was reported that WarnerMedia had devoted $100 million towards helping movie production crews through Coronavirus. I hope you celebrated, since you claim to care so much about corporate charity.
The logic of this criticism is very specifically that Zack Snyder is uniquely the one director who is single-handedly responsible for disease research, tuition fees, rent, poverty, and passion projects for marginalised filmmakers. Not the Russos, not JJ Abrams, not Rian Johnson, or even the government, apparently. But you can whine at your computer or phone about the evils of capitalism while spending ridiculous amounts of money on movie tickets for tremendously more expensive films to make wealthy studio executives even richer. You have no moral obligations whatsoever and can freely contribute to the very things you complain about. That is what you think.
If you want to rant about this, then you better have the consistency to complain about other films like Avengers: Endgame with its cost of $356 million. The studio allocated $25 million dollars (but probably a whole lot more) for Justice League reshoots when the film they had was already nearing completion, all to appease you and your incessant screeching about a dark tone and lack of humour, but did you really complain then? This criticism can necessarily apply to so many other films it is not even funny. In fact, some films with a much larger budget are still in production as I type this during COVID. Why do you never complain about all those films too? Why is Zack Snyder the only director who should feel bad for the amount of money going into his project? Well, because you have a bone to pick with him for making films you hate and with his fans for daring to like them.
A bad director doesn't deserve seventy million dollars to finish a bad film when that money could go to something better!
Firstly, if you think this, it necessarily means you value your entertainment more than the lives of the people you claim to care about. Secondly, your opinion of Snyder's movies does not take precedence over the opinions of his many fans. People disagree with you. They love these films that you hate so much. HBO Max is supplying their demand, as all businesses do with countless "bad" directors that you never complain about the same way with this sanctimonious moralising about money. Lastly, Zack Snyder is perhaps one of the nicest directors in the industry, gushed about by everyone he works with, and considering the tragedy that took this film away from him before, no other director deserves to finish their movie more than him.
There are other filmmakers who deserve to release their director's cuts more than Snyder!
We asked for this. We earned this. Those other films are not our responsibility. Nothing is stopping you from campaigning for them if you really wanted them. Heck, you would get my support. I believe all filmmakers should be able to realise their artistic vision. But campaigns for those films do not currently exist, at least not to the extent of the Snyder Cut movement. More people wanted the Snyder Cut. Much more, considering the money being spent on this thing. Furthermore, the happening of the Snyder Cut does not damage any possibility of those other cuts being seen. There was no trade-off. Those films were not the expense for Zack Snyder's Justice League.
Furthermore, you do not get to decide which director deserves to realise their movie. Zack Snyder is perhaps one of the nicest directors in the industry, gushed about by everyone he works with, and considering the tragedy that took this film away from him before, how can any other director deserve to finish their movie more than him? The Justice League debacle was the pinnacle of studio meddling, the worst we have ever seen, and if that does not deserve backlash, nothing does.
Really, this comes from a place of pure bitterness at seeing Zack Snyder and his fans triumph when you wanted this film buried. You never cared about those other movies. You just want something to beat the Snyder Cut with. Let it go. Move on. Zack Snyder's Justice League is no one's enemy. It is just a movie.
We're not against Snyder getting to make his film! We just think DC needs to look forward instead of to the past! I want that money to be spent on something else!
That is not any better. I explained in an earlier response the many motivations for pursuing the Snyder Cut. The huge majority are individually ten times more important than, "Well, I don't want it, and would rather get other DC films!" Furthermore, what if Zack Snyder's Justice League does get a sequel? What would you say then if the Snyder Cut movement is ultimately responsible for building a new future for the DCEU? Furthermore, you are still getting The Suicide Squad (2021), The Flash (2022), Aquaman 2 (2022), The Batman (2022), Shazam! Fury of the Gods (2023), and Black Adam (TBA). The least you could do is consider what we want instead of acting like your own personal preferences are the only ones that matter.
A Justice League movie shouldn't be in black and white!
At no point has Snyder ever said the movie would be in black and white. This criticism originates from the following quote that, like most of what Snyder says, has been misrepresented to promote a narrative...
"My ideal version of the movie is the black and white IMAX version of the movie. That, to me, is the most fan-centric, most pure, most Justice League experience because... I don't know. Like I said, that's how I lived with the movie for two years, in black and white. I mean, I love the colour version of the movie and that's what I want you to see, that you're gonna get." (Zack Snyder, TheFilmJunkee, 13 November 2020)
Nothing to read here. Just a TEDTalk from a Zack Snyder tribalist.
ReplyDeleteExcellent resource. Thank you for writing this up! One of the most informative and comprehensive SnyderVerse related articles I've seen. Kudos! Look forward to more :)
ReplyDeleteZack Snyder's filmography:
ReplyDeleteDawn of the Dead: Hit. But Romero said he only enjoyed the first 15-20 minutes and compared it to a video game.
300: Hit
Watchmen: critical and commercial failure
Owl movie: critical and commercial failure. Book fans have yet to forgive Snyder for this bs of an adaptation.
Sucker Punch: critical and commercial failure. With this movie Snyder showed that he was also a terrible writer.
Man of Steel: Just made $43 million in profit. Divisive movie. You either love it or its the worst movie ever.
BvS: Critical failure and underperformed at the box office. Both fans and critics agreed this was a disaster.
Justice League: Critical and commercial faiure.
His track record alone proves what a terrible director he really is. Kinda impressive a hack like him has managed to convince some people that he is this genius the cinema was carving for
Fans: Yeah, I like Snyder movies for all their faults. I always look forward to his movies.
ReplyDeleteLoyalist: I like his movies, yeah, but I stand by him. You may be right his movies are bad but I'll always like his movies. I'll even fight for him if it comes to that.
Tribalist: How dare you say anything bad about Zack Snyder?! He's a genius and all his movies are masterpieces. His movies are for grown ups, not kiddies. If you don't like his movies, you're either a numbnut or a Marvel fanboy!
The truth is that there are more Zack Snyder tribalists out there than Zack Snyder fans and loyalist. But what makes Snyder tribalists different from Marvel tribalists is that they don't have good movies to lean into. When you tell a Marvel tribalist that Infinity War sucked, they'll say "But you'll like Ironman or Thor Ragnarok or Civil War or Winter Soldier or the first Avengers movies." And yes, all these movies are good. But if you tell a Snyder tribalist that BvS sucked, they'll all get defensive and try to belittle you and tell you how horrible your taste is. Snyder tribalists don't have other good movies to lean into after all, Sucker Punch, Watchmen, The Legends of Guardians, Man of Steel etc are by all means range from bad to terrible.But instead of admitting this, they've convinced themselves that these movies are underrated masterpieces. And no amount of convincing will change their mind. No, these people are not toxic, they're just stupid.
How sad that the coward above feels so triggered by your airtight analysis that they spend their free time making multiple negative comments on a blog that called people like him out. Must've touched a nerve, huh, if he came back three times. It shows how robust your analysis is. They criticize films for not performing as well as they want at the box office, and they use box office performance as proof for whether a film is good/bad. Small minds. They can't even address the points in your analysis. They just can't fathom that some people genuinely love Zack Snyder's films. These haters are the scruff of yesterday. How sad that this person can't feel any connection with art and truly appreciate it, but instead is stuck in a mindset of reducing things to being a binary of good/bad. I genuinely pity this shallow coward.
ReplyDeleteThank you for the kind words in this comment and your other. Yes, a fundamental behaviour of the hatedom is to equate mere disagreement over the quality of these films with toxicity. I never said anyone has to agree with my views on the films, yet "Unknown" up there disregards the content of my post to focus on my opinion on the films: by thinking they are good, I must be a tribalist. It is part of the victim complex I mentioned. Their blatant toxicity is just and righteous because their opinions on these films are, to them, downright morally mandatory. If I said half of what Unknown said, one would be right to call me tribalistic.
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